Dialogue with Wakas – On 2/196

1) You said – “We are to complete the challenge and fertilisation for Allah, which is to establish and grow His system in the world. Whoever is prevented should…”

Prevented from establishing and growing His system in the world? If so that would mean pretty much everyone in the world would be classed as “prevented”, because at best it would be a tiny tiny minority who could even claim to have ESTABLISHED and GROWN His system in the world. Further, what establishing and growing means is anyone’s guess. It seems it would be subjective, and difficult to determine when this had been fulfilled, if ever.

Yes correct, it is subjective and you have admitted in our discussions that you are a subjective being. This being the case, any alternative you present is also subjective and also subject to that a person’s internal experience. This is not discordant with Quran at all which to me is a dialogue between Allah and the Reader.

Yes, so what if only a tiny minority could do it. This is an irrelevant point. Capacity to do it is with all of us if only we possess the deen level of ibrahim.

2) You translate “al hadiy” as “progressions” with NQCR, NQE, NCADR. Having an alternative translation for a word is fine but at least one would expect an explanation or some presentation of evidence for an unheard of word choice. Secondly, the word is actually “al hadiy” (definite noun, singular) so it should have been translated as “the progression”. The use of “al” commonly signifies that this noun and what it refers to is well known to the addressed audience. Of course, if you were to translate it in this way, it would be more awkward for you to explain.

False. This is what comes of uncritical readings of grammar books. Ism Ma3rifa has dozens of percieved significances among grammarians. It is incredibly short sighted to suggest it means ‘well known to addressed audience’. How on earth would you know what they percieved or understood? If you wish to conject what people believe, I’d rather not join you.

Hadya to me is linked with huda which I take to mean guidance or progress. Hadya contributes towards that progress and I see that progress’s goal to be masjid al-haram.

3) Translates “raas” as “thought” with NQCR, NQE, NCADR. Again, choosing an unusual word choice is fine if it can be backed up with some sort of reasoning/evidence, but you present none. Furthermore, it is plural, not singular.

Once again, uncritical use of Arabic. Can you say ‘a water’ or ‘a dust’ ? Secondly, this is not a translation but an articulation of my understanding. Raas is literally ‘head’ but even in the Quran, it is used metaphorically like raas al-maal. Here my understanding percieves it as thoughts.

4) Translates “mahilla” as “place of effectiveness” with NQCR, NQE, NCADR.

Once again, not a translation but an understanding. I see ‘halal’ as availability insofar as when you ‘uhilla’, you are making something available and thus available to effect something, such as 5/1, the bahimatul an3aam will be effective for us by the ‘uhilla’ process. Therefore ‘mahilla’ is where our hadya will be effective.

5) Do you expect a person with psychological issues to determine they are so and therefore fast, give charity etc? I’m very interested to know how this would be, do tell.

Yes I do. The nafsiyyah elements in Quran are self-diagnosed. Unfortunately, your inability to situate phrases in their semantic networks have left you incapable to procesing words beyond their normative connotations, hence your question. In Quran, our nafs are sources of signs (41/53) and as such can only be discerned by ourselves.

6) “Once they are secure” – secure from what?

Secure from their psychological issues or illness. Please read the context.

7) Incorrectly imply the verse says “continue with the umra” when the Arabic actually uses a perfect verb, meaning an action done/completed, meaning “whoever benefitted/enjoyed with the umra”, thus there can be no “(that is to keep growing Gods system till it challenges oppression)” as you allege.

Once again, this is not a translation. Furthermore, you seem to think this is a single process. The umrah here refers to fertilisation of our acts towards the challenge of establishing masjid al-haram. It would be very unintelligent for us to quantify this. The perfect verb tamatta3a signifies the current process of fertilisation which happens in levels.

8) Halfway through the verse you switch “al hajj” to be in reference to challenging oppression, which is not mentioned in the context.

If context is the next verse, you’d be right. However, I tend to read entire chapters and texts as contributive to the wider meanings of a particular aya. The ism ma3rifa of the hajj refers to establishment of masjid al-haram. Masajid are places which counter oppression by iqamul qist (7/29).

9) For sake of argument, if we assume it is indeed about “…continue with fertilisation towards the challenge (that is to keep growing Gods system till it challenges oppression) by keep contributing hadya/progressions. “ – but the Arabic actually says “…then what is EASY of the progression” – I never knew challenging oppression would be easy. Can we assume your view is Quran is saying only do the easy stuff when it comes to combating oppression? If it’s difficult just leave it?

Firstly, I’d just like to say your sarcastic and rude tone has no place in a quranist discourse. This is compounded with the fact that your own analysis of masjid al-haram is fraught with shortcomings and even deems Quranic elements as ‘passing’. I suggest a thorough self-examination. Ask yourself why the hostility?

It also appears you have a severe reading difficulty. You yourself said ‘what is easy OF THE PROGRESSION’ then deduce that Quran implies ‘challenging oppression would be easy’. This is a terrible deduction. How does progression transform into oppression? Progressions here are contributive towards the goal. The goal itself may not be immediately attainable but progress towards that goal is.

10) You say “If he is unable to make progress during the period of challenge” but the Arabic simply says “so whoever couldn’t find”. Let us know what you translate “yajid (find)” as.

Yes, ‘yajid’ means find but find what? Please read in context. The flow of the aya is talking about the hadya which are progressions towards the goal.

11) Since you view “the challenge” as establishing God’s system in the world then the vast majority would not be able to establish it, thus the period you allude to would be their lifetime, yet you now imply “the challenge” is a finite period or periods. Please explain.

I never said or implied any such thing. Your question was about the vast majority being able to do it. The hajj in this context is a finite period which ends when one’s connected people (ahl) are in the presence of masjid-al haram.

12) I’d be very interested in hearing your logic behind having 3 periods of fasting during the challenge and a number of periods during the times for people. And why this is a “formula for perfect social living”? And if you have time, explain your obscure reference to 2:189 and timings and how they’d be determined practically.

At the moment, ‘3’ is not something I’m sure of as anymore as new developments have emerged. I am sure that fasting is involved as fasting to a certain point (that of shahru ramadhan) is essential to build spiritual energy. This is during the time when the challenge is undertaken. However, in a lax period (as per 2/187) , the fasts can be regular fasts (as per 2/183-184).

These fasts are withdrawals from consumption and spending for the poor. As such, it will be bring about a harmonious society.

13) You seemingly miss out the Arabic when it says “when you returned” -please explain.

In the context, it refers to when people have returned to normal living from engaging with the challenge.

14) You claim “3asharah kaamilah” means “perfect social living” with NQCR, NQE, NCADR. The same word “3asharah” appears in 5:89 and using your translation would render it nonsensical. Further, the grammar of these two words in their construction would need explained in any alternative understanding. As it stand you have not.

As you have admitted yourself a subjective meaning, ‘nonsensical’ is relative to your paradigm of tafseer. I see 3asharah masakeen as the society of the stagnant people. That is to say, the social class who are unable to progress.

15) The Arabic is “al masjid al haram” which implies you are translating “masjid” as “system”. Is this how you translate “masjid” elsewhere? And therefore what about “sujud”?

Masjid is a place of submission and thereby projecting a system of actions through its obedience to laws. Sadly, your inability to percieve beyond a literal reading hampers your understanding a lot.

16) Strictly speaking, the preposition “fee (in)” is not there in the Arabic prior to “al masjid al haram”.

Yes, these are notes which are in English. They would not be coherent in a word for word translation.

17) You translate “haram” as “sanctified”, but this makes little sense elsewhere, e.g. 2:194, 5:97, 9:5, 9:36 amongst others. If we combine this with your translation of “shahr” as “situation/condition” or “obvious state”, then what are the 12 obvious states with God, and 4 of them are sanctified (see 9:36)? If they are indeed obvious, it should be easy for you to tell us what they are, and/or the logic behind them, as per Quran.

Haram cannot be translated with one word. It could be sanctified or sanctioned.  There are no 12 or 4 obvious states. I don’t believe in these numbers at all. ‘Ithna 3ashara’ refers to the two ends of society which come together, arba3a I am unable to articulate at present but I would venture with stability.


Background reading: http://www.islam-and-muslims.com/articles/Quran-2196-critical-thinking.html

About Farouk A. Peru

I am a human being in the world, blogging my existence. My thought systems may be found in my website: www.farouk.name
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